BEN—Phil! Thrilled to have you join the extended exchange series with myself and Rotenda. Before we dig in, as is tradition, we'll start off with a bit of context. For both of you, where are you currently and what time is it?

PHIL—I’m in Chicago at 1:20PM on Sunday afternoon. The weather has been really pleasant all week, unseasonably cool, but it’s making me prematurely wistful for summer.

ROTENDA—Reporting from Munich, Wednesday 20:39. Weather has been pleasant as well but so unpredictable - almost an all seasons experience through a week. What about you Ben? 

BEN—I’m here in Chicago, 1:50PM or so, and yes I’m enjoying this unseasonable cooler weather as you said Phil…but worrying I didn’t get enough days in swimming at the lakeshore in the sun.

PHIL—Yes, this is exactly my feeling, I should be swimming every weekend!

BEN—And…for both of you, what is the most interesting thing you've seen in the past 30 days? For me it was spending some time at the new US based fabricator for the aluminum incense and watching it all happen in real time. Lots of metal chips flying. 

PHIL—My 9 month old son has suddenly become very fascinated in the planes coming in to land at O’Hare over our apartment. We are in the path of the southern runway, so every minute or so we get a plane coming in overhead. We are far enough east that it’s not obnoxiously loud but in the past week, we’ve become a family of plane watchers. Every week he does something new and seeing him learn and observe the world is endlessly interesting to me.

ROTENDA—I have to say the spin at the Porsche Museum in Stuttgart was very interesting. Amazing archive of past, present and future. Oh! Very much enjoyed seeing the Mercedes-Benz 500E Porsche built.

BEN—Phil, to kick it off, mind explaining briefly who you are and what 1733 is?

PHIL—1733 is a bag and accessory brand based in Chicago. We are primarily focused on in-house manufacturing of technical backpacks, slings, duffles, and tote bags. Around the edges we work with manufacturing partners to produce additional products in our line, design and development for other brands, and - most relevant to this conversation - white label manufacturing. I founded the company and run the operations on a day to day basis. 

BEN—And then, a more direct question... I love the relatively ancient nature of bags and bag design.  Why do you work in bags?

PHIL—I think of bags as dynamic sculptures. They can be fully rigid or completely unstructured, and that nature changes with what is inside of them and how and where they are carried. The bags I am most interested in designing are the ones in between rigid and floppy that have the versatility to carry a wide variety of objects in a wide variety of ways. 

BEN—Dynamic sculptures. That’s absolutely incredible. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a more fitting and concise description for a bag. And yes, I too am fascinated with the magic space between rigid and floppy. The first leather Ghost Bag I did years ago was the first time I realized how important that middle-ground is in regards to structure.

What was the first ever instance of you creating a bag for yourself? And did it have a name?

PHIL—My first attempt at a bag was one of the first things I tried to sew, but it was a complete failure. I didn’t know how to put things together. I’m pretty sure there is a zipper I cut out for it with the original brown cotton canvas sewn to it in one of my scrap bins. Even as my skills grew this bag was unsalvageable, because it was designed in such ignorance. It never earned a name. It did begin my obsession with sourcing materials and trims. The second attempt was called Neoprene Gym Bag, which began my obsession with product naming conventions. 

BEN—Yes…I always love understanding where the obsession starts for someone. That’s an excellent story.

You know have this rather incredible studio and production factory here on the West Side of Chicago. Can you talk a bit through what it's like to grow your own manufacturing from scratch? I've always been so inspired by people who not only design things, learn all the processes, materials, etc...but those that then design and build the system and setup to make the actual thing at scale. In our world/scene/etc it's exceptionally rare to see this. 

PHIL—Everything I’ve done with 1733 is self taught and when learning outside of established institutions you develop your own language and eccentricities. I suppose this made me self conscious about trying to work with a factory, would they tell me I’ve been doing it wrong and I have to start over? Would I have to learn new software? I started doing this to work with my hands, not spend time on the computer. More practically, doing it myself, and then growing a team to continue to produce in-house allowed me to control the scale of the brand.  We can produce a wide variety of styles in a variety of materials and not be beholden to the order quantities of a larger factory. We can make 100 SKUs a year here, if we outsourced everything it would be closer to 10. Having the amount of control I have over every aspect makes it much more rewarding to me, I wouldn’t have it any other way.

BEN—A bit random, but speaking over your studio… I remember this deep blue Japanese nylon woven that shrinks quite a bit during the dye process and had this lovely compressed feel to it. Every time I've visited your studio you'll show me some new fabric, closure, substrate, etc. I'd love to understand how you research, explore, and source the materials you use for your bags.

PHIL—New materials seem to end up on my desk as a result of good relationships. Working closely with my existing suppliers, clients, and collaborators leads to sharing resources to make something new. People know that I’m open to experimentation so if they have something they want to see in bag form they often send it my way. After doing this for 11 years there are fabric attributes that I look for on a spec sheet that might make me consider a textile good for 1733. Weight, weave type, density, yarn treatment, post processing are all things that I’ve grown a decent understanding of how they will function in bag form. Being in the manufacturing environment everyday also is a big benefit. I understand how these fabrics behave in a production setting, not just a design or sampling scenario. Is the coating so heavy it will melt on to our cutting blades, are the right and wrong sides of the fabric hard to distinguish, does it sit flat or roll up into a tube, what kind of needle and thread do we need. These are attributes that can reveal themselves when other people are handling the materials and I’m lucky that I’m 20ft away while they are doing that.  

BEN—I agree. My only instance of this is being at the factories that make my objects for a visit or getting production videos from them. It almost always sparks a new object idea, finish concept, etc. 

Speaking of that, what's a material or process you'd like to work with that you haven't yet? 

PHIL—We are in the early stages of designing a bag that will be assembled by radio frequency welding instead of sewn with needle and thread. This is not something we can do in Chicago but I believe we have found a manufacturing partner who can create something really unique with this technology. It’s been a very interesting project to this point because I’ve had to learn and design within the constraints of a whole new type of process. 

BEN—Yes, I remember chatting with you on this. Also, “radio frequency welding” is about the coolest sounding process name I can imagine.

How many uniquely different bag designs have you made over the years?

PHIL—I’m not a very good record keeper, maybe 100-200.

BEN—What makes a great bag great?

PHIL—I love a bag that you don’t have to think about. It’s just there, you know where you put your things, it works, and your interactions with it have only enough friction to remind you that it’s a pleasant thing you are using. 

BEN—I agree. I struggle with this in general, really when designing anything. It’s such a tricky thing to design something that disappears, elegantly and usefully, into your life.

Looking ahead, what do you think will be the most notable innovation in bag design 10, 20, 50 years from now?

PHIL—It think in the next 10 years, more bags will be constructed from a single unbroken textile in some type of fully automated 3D knitting. This is already making its way into the market and I believe that more companies will see the reduction of human labor as a benefit to their bottom line. In 20 years I hope we will have moved beyond the need to carry multiple devices around with us, especially laptops, which so many bags are designed around today. In 50 years I imagine you’ll either need to carry your entire life in a bag or there won’t really be a practical need for bags at all. I think it would be great if when I am 87 I can still sit at sewing machine and sew bags for people who would care about it being done the old fashioned way.

BEN—That’s interesting though. I mentioned that bags feel like such an “ancient” piece of design. I don’t think bags will ever really feel old fashion regardless of their assembly process. Who knows though…

We've talked about it a bit while at your studio, but we always show off whatever well used bag we have and talk about how we love a bag that shows its story. I still use what I believe is either the first production Ghost Tote or it may even be the original sample. Truly beat up in the most lovely way. When do you retire a bag?

PHIL—Usually when I have something similar and newer I need to wear-test. I wish I could run them into the ground harder honestly.

BEN—On the Ghost Tote. It’s about 5-6 years old now I think. Maybe even a bit more. By design, it's quite simple compared to the more complex work you're known for. Were there any challenges or new learnings in the creation of it? One of my favorite details is how clean the suede bottom edge is in how it interacts with the canvas above it.

PHIL—The suede bottom is certainly the most complex part of the Ghost Tote. Finding the right foam thickness and density and how to mange the layers in the corners were our first challenges. A couple years ago we started using double sided tape to hold the edge down and a new guide to make the fold and stitch much easier to manage and cleaner looking. The double sided tape gun has become a really commonly used tool on lots of bags now.

BEN—What would you change about the Ghost Tote if there were ever to be a version 2?

PHIL—You and I always talk about changing the hardware on the strap, which would be an easy upgrade to the generic buckle we use now and nod to the other metal products in the BEOC line. The large canvas sides are also calling for a graphic or word mark in the BE style. Even print the reverse graphic on the back or inside of the bag. But if we get to the point of adding a zipper or interior pocket, we’ve gone too far. 

BEN—Quite true! Zipper closure, interior pocket, etc… I’ve thought about them, but even with those being such “normal” changes It loses some of the simplicity that makes it what it is. I do think some really beautiful, but almost unnoticeable new hardware from milled metal is likely next though. Ghost Tote No. 1.1. [Laughter] Rotenda and I will get working on that.

I have to tell a funny story for the readers. After we created the first Ghost Tote together, I asked if you would be okay if I sourced them overseas to help reduce the cost of production a bit. You kindly agreed to a small deal where I could reproduce it elsewhere. After working with two spots in Asia and one spot in Los Angeles, no one could come even close to the fit and finish of your work. I went back to you with my tail a bit between my legs and asked if you'd continue to making them for me. Again, you kindly agreed. Now I can’t imagine it being made anywhere else. I’m honored to have your skill, perfect eye for quality, and the magic that is 1733 imbued into each Ghost Tote. A million thanks again for agreeing to manufacture them. And right here in Chicago no less.

PHIL—When I mentioned our white label manufacturing above and its relevance to this conversion I really mean it, the Ghost Tote is now the only bag we make that does not have a 1733 logo on it. It’s a special product and one that we are happy to contribute to. 

BEN—That’s such an honor, thank you again Phil. Means a ton.

ROTENDA—Being a “fly on the wall” for this exchange was a treat and a lesson. The Ghost Tote’s story is less a product timeline and more a relationship—one shaped over years of collaboration, refinement, and consideration. The result is a piece that feels truly timeless. A classic in every sense. Yet to get my hands on one! [Laughter]

BEN—Yes, Rotenda! I’ll be sure to send one over so it can get stuck with DHL for weeks as per usual in Germany. [Laughter]

To close it out, as always, what song would you match with this interview?

PHIL—Change by Big Thief, guaranteed to get my son to fall asleep.

BEN—Hmmm. I’m going to go with this song I’ve had on repeat after hearing it played so loudly from a car a couple weeks ago that I could Shazam it from down the block… I Like It by DeBarge.

ROTENDA—Only fair I go with the one on my AirPods right now, You Can’t Turn Me Away by Sylvia Striplin.