BEN—Reporting from a beautiful later summer day here in Chicago, weather has just been incredible. Just launched the black iteration of the classic cutting mat and heading out for an afternoon swim downtown here shortly. Where in the world do we find you currently? Just landed I suspect somewhere a bit more idylic than Munich if I'm not mistaken?

ROTENDA—Correct! I’m currently in Palermo, the capital of the Italian island of Sicily. Charming city. Weather….. it’s been pretty up there, at around 38 - 40 degrees, a touch better (thanks to the AC’s everywhere) than the Paris heat wave from a month or two back. That’s it for me with the high temps this year, I could do with some cooler ones.

BEN—Man…we were texting about this earlier. That Paris trip. Not sure an Extended Exchange could ever capture how sideways that trip went and how the weather affected it. What a trip.

Onto much more enjoyable topics!! As per usual as we open these convos - though I can't say that as of late since we've taken a bit of a break from these Extended Exchnages - what's the most interesting thing you've seen in the past 30 days?

ROTENDA—My pick is seeing the full collection of the BMW art cars. Not all struck me highly in person, as some I liked more previously seeing them in photos. My pick from the show was the 1976 BMW 3.0 CSL designed by Frank Stella. Big surprise was its black-and-white grid pattern which was all entirely done using black heavy duty tape, which I think it’s impressive to achieve at that scale. How about on your ends? We’ve had couple exciting exchanges of interesting things these last few!

BEN—Ah yes, yes. I’d really, really like to see that collection of cars in person.

For me...unfortunately it's not something we can fully share yet, I'm doing that annoying thing designers do when they tease/talk about something they're working on but can't show. [Laughter] It has to be the new fully custom metal hardware for the new bag we're working on and hoping to launch this later fall. It's one of those classic things where it's such a simple thing - a metal strap slide and a metal zipper pull, both casted - with a very simple branding/logo element added. I can't wait to show it...well that and the bag that it's on. For some reason beyond some of the other objects, this one has completely grabbed my attention. I feel like it's a new....character in the Object Company world, etc.  And there is something that all designers/creatives seem to love when editing the most simple/standard details of a product to make it truly their own. So...zipper pulls. How specific. [Laughter] 

ROTENDA—Those hardwares are really that “new character in the Object Company World” - as I like to call them, the first BEOC standard stock parts! More of these in the future.

BEN—That really is what they are, I hadn’t thought about it that way. “Standard Stock Parts.” Or even…OEM BEOC. That just gave me some ideas.

This issues topic… As time in life has passed...I've become really fascinated with really simple questions that help you learn about someone else really quickly. And/or incredibly simple, of one word answer, questions that spark a much larger conversation. So...the most classic of them all: Whats your favorite color?

ROTENDA—[Laughter] A difficult one to answer when I operate almost in a code of a black uniform, and designing colour, or at least having a strong instinct for it, is part of the daily business of what we do. [Laughter] feels illegal to have a favourite, but I’ll pick pink.

It’s uncomfortably comfortable, carrying this tension between softness and confidence, vulnerability and provocation, tenderness and excess. Somehow, all of that makes it comfortable. It definitely wasn’t/isn’t always my favourite colour, but it grew on me as life passed. I’m drawn to what it represents, yet slightly uncomfortable with how much it asks to be seen. And against my personal instinct for black, pink becomes even more interesting. Black conceals; whilst pink reveals.

BEN—That’s likely the best answer to that question I’ve ever heard. Incredible. Pink is indeed such a provocative color. But in the most elegant way possible. We’ve actualyl had whole conversations on what a consistent BEOC packaging and retail bag program would look like…and that soft pink has always been my pick.

But for me, yes…I find this almost impossible to answer as I always want to follow it up with a...another question. "Well, it depends. What is the color being applied on? What is the use of the object being colored? Where will it be used? How is the color being applied?" Etc, etc. This is the magic of a question like that...it's often a short or one word answer, but it prompts endless further questions and explorations. 

But to break my own rule, as of late, it's been a kind of desaturated green.

ROTENDA—You perfectly gave a peep of the “business of colour” - and I feel this is what it does great: can make or break a product. if you were to apply the “desaturated green” on 3 items around you right now, what would those be?

BEN—My love of that green comes from when we did the cast silicone rubber i-beams and one of the colors was that green. OIt came completely alive to me in that very soft matte finish the rubber has.

3 items around me. A Pelican 1030 case. A Benjamin Edgar Knock Cardholder. And a random one…but maybe my flooring?? Could you imagine a really elegant green hardood floor?

I had to look this up as I sit here and answer these, humans can perceive between 1 million and 10 million different color shades. That's an interesting bit of context to go into this conversation with. And, funny enough, I'm actually personally fairly colorblind. I fail those test with the numbers placed inside all the different colored dots. Are you familiar with that test?

ROTENDA—Actually not, I’m unfamiliar - I should do a test!

“Pigeons can see colours we cannot. Perhaps taste is simply a way of seeing what others overlook.” [Laughter]

My eyes are super sensitive to light, which I link back to habitually avoiding wearing sunglasses growing up, now it’s impossible for me to live without them. For my daily working environment, I wear prescribed ones with a slight purple tint, which alters my world (colour wise). So in any design review involving colour or materials, whether that’s a physical sample or a digital render/visual I’m creating, I need to view that naturally without the aid of glasses. [Laughter] are we (the pair) even qualified to be having a colour conversation with our limits in seeing?

BEN—Quite funny actually as I wear tinted perscription glasses myself as well and have edited a photo/worked on a design for hours without remembering I was wearing them only to take them off and be quite confused why the colors are all super off. [Laughter] And yes…you and I perpetually with the black shades on. Ironically I’m headed out to get a new pair today.

Colors and products. Where to even begin. I suppose a good place would be, when you're dreaming about a product, mentally beginning to sketch it, like the very first glimpses of an idea...do you see it in it's final color or it's shape?

ROTENDA—I want to say absolutely. But that’s not true. If it’s an emotional object, often times I inform the feeling I’m chasing via colour. And most times in those cases, the colour direction won’t change but these is few multiple iterations of that colour would come to get the “right” intensity for the intended feeling. When the colour comes later in the process, the object is most times have colour as it’s second or third read. We talk about this a lot but it’s almost fully embedded in us just on how we approach designing.

BEN—How much do you find shape is affected by the color applied to it…and color affected by the shape it's applied on?

I ask as this whole exchange came from the prompt of launching the now many years old Gravitational Cutting Mat in a new color...or some would say lack of color in that it's black.

ROTENDA—I love this question. As you asked it, my answer is as such. If the intent is to showcase a particular colour, you need a shape/form which best shows that colour. If the intent is form, you need a colour which best showcases shapes. “Some colours look better on flat surfaces than curved” and vice versa. What I love whilst we’re at it, there’s entirely no rule to this subject, but it has so much to do with the ways of seeing.

BEN—This is so especially relevant in cars. I find silver and white cars often completely mask the surface curves of most cars - really apparent in photos as well where the shape can kind of just disappear.

I often look at color when designing something, especially something that has three dimensions to it, as part of the object itself...almost like color is a material. Whereas when it's more of a two-dimensional piece of design, I see it as a veneer of sorts. If that makes sense? And I don't use veneer in that instance to downplay it. 

ROTENDA—Absolutely. The world of cars has so much there. These moving pieces have to entice one via form and colour. I often feel, the smaller the object, the harder it is to design colour. There isn’t enough surface area for expression and read.

BEN—Interesting point on size/scale. I hadn’t ever really thought of that. One can think about the iPhone for example here of a small object…while they do colors, I don’t think there’s ever been an “iconic” color on an iPhone outside of the natural silver material, etc. Where counter to that, think of say a large object, a Bentley or a Jaguar…you instantly think of a deep green, etc.

Then…there is the whole idea of color and emotion. I could sit here and ramble on this for days...but curious what that notion prompts in you.

ROTENDA—This is a close one to me, and I think we need a whole Extended Exchange on that. Well… I say that with caution, could be a long one. [Laughter]

I think for me, colour is emotional intelligence. It’s not something I simply see, but something I feel before I can necessarily explain it. I often find myself having an instinct for colour without beginning with a rational system, and I think that instinct allows one to read its emotional weight.

Being vulnerable and unselfish goes a long way when designing, not only from your own emotions, but for the emotions of others. I’m often reminded of this when working on client cars, you have to be willing to step outside of yourself, while still exercising a certain degree of control, protection and restraint. Perhaps that’s what makes colour so fascinating: it can communicate something deeply emotional without asking you to rationalise why you feel it.

As we near concluding this exchange, this is where I’m curious of your thoughts. When you think about colour and emotion, do you believe the emotional response to a colour can actually be designed with intention, or are we ultimately just responding to associations, memories and experiences that are already embedded in us?

BEN—How am I suppose to follow-up that answer! “…colour is emotional intelligence.” Incredible. I re-read that answer like 3 times. But to answer… I think so. But I say that with a bit of hesitation honestly. There are the obvious bright oranges, bright reds, bright yellow, on signs that communicate danger or caution. And there are those ideas that somewhat universally to the human condition that green is for abundance, or blue can be calming, or yellow is optimism, etc, etc. But I think we’re talking far past that. I do think it’s both a gift and curse for a designer when exploring colors to have to live with what existing emotions the viewer may have tied to whatever the color might be. This is honestly quite tricky to answer…I suppose where I land is that this is where intense creativity becomes paramount. I believe that color can be used with wit or even irony to take the viewer on a journey outside of how they already might feel about a color. And as you already noted, one of the best examples of this might be…pink.

This was easily one of my favorite Extended Exchanges.

As we always do, to close it out, which song would you pick?

ROTENDA—Something I listened to after this exchange, Sense by Sophia Zhuravkova. Feels to sit between music, atmosphere and emotional world-building.

BEN—I’m going with Open Your Eyes by Bobby Caldwell.