BEN—Just landed back here from NYC last night. Escaped the snow storm there only to land back into a truly proper Chicago winter. It's 19F today which is a heatwave compared to a few days ago. I've honestly been complaining about this winter weather more than usual, but there is something magic about the forced downtime it creates. Lots of time to...think. Maybe too much. [Laughter] How's things in Munich at the moment?

ROTENDA—[Laughter] “maybe too much!” It’s now about 3 weeks back in Munich. First day back I was welcomed by snow, and still feels like I’m settling into the cold weather. But! I don’t mind it, it kicks me back into rhythm quickly and I enjoy that!

BEN—I get a bit of that as well. How the cold kind of…wakes you up. I would say I’d prefer to not dip too far under say 25F. Unfortunately that hasn’t been the case. [Laughter]

And, as always, what's the most interesting thing you've seen in the past 30 days? 

ROTENDA—I am not sure if I ever got to share this photo with you - it’s a photo I took of an artwork by an artist called Gali Bowmani, whose work captures daily life in underprivileged townships. I believe he is South African. What struck me over the 3 weeks of seeing it everyday was the way he creates using found objects - greatly collaged through mixed media. His use of perspective to create depth was a catch too. I couldn’t find enough information online about the artist himself and the work - which in turn made that discovery a fascinating one. A treasure not seeking to be hunted! [Laughter]

BEN—You hadn’t…but checking now!

For me...well, actually it goes beyond the past 30 days, it's the footwear brand Village PM. Been following them for a bit. I don't own a pair, but should. Specifically the 130PM. I find what they're building so, so refreshing. It feels new without being overly provocative. Super wearable, etc. But most important, material driven to cater to its use...skateboarding. I always loved the aesthetic of mountain climbing shoes, but they're of course not really wearable daily. So it was so lovely to see Village PM take the material tech around climbing and apply it to something more wearable, day to day. I don't skate like I used to, unfortunately falling hurts with compounding interest as you age, [Laughter] but these would 100% be my go to if I was still at it. They just previewed their latest collection in Paris last week and it's even better. Truly fantastic company. And the price points are crazy!

It's interesting, skateboarding is such an...emotional sport. In my view at least. It's so deeply nuanced. Far more driven by style - which is of course subjective - rather than something quantifiable or objective. Interestingly, if not accidentally on topic for emotion.

ROTENDA—I had to look the company up - hadn’t heard of them, but I have to say, you can tell they have a very clear vision. There’s that attention to functional details, which I I imagine is born from the process of functional prototypes till you go “…that’s it!” They look well refined. More to study.

BEN—I want to chat on it broadly before we get into the specific object. So, I'll have you go first...what is the most emotional object in your life? How would you succinctly explain what makes an object emotional?

ROTENDA—The most emotional object in my life! Phew, this is a hard one…for this reason; I’ve lived in different cities for the last couple of years - and I just didn’t seem to hold specific emotional attachments to the things I own/ed. The least things I had to move around with, the deeper the emotion I placed on them. Were they designed to be emotional? Not all, but I think in my case emotional attachment was a result of association. They were functional things (“Living Memoirs” I would call them) which I knew they’d be there when I needed them the most. What makes an emotional object? One that ignites them. Whether it is joy or safety - or simply to flirt. My living memoirs, I reference, made me feel safe. 

Today, I grow to understand that creating something that evokes those areas isn’t the simplest thing to do. Finding human experiences and conditions exciting - has a way of taking you to places where you can uncover how to harness and communicate emotions. I am honoured and grateful to train at the pinnacle training ground of emotional design, which is Rolls Royce. Approaching design more in the form of writing than illustrating. Both however being equally important, some things are just better designed in words first.

Before I can go any deeper to express fully, we might need a whole book on this subject only! [Laughter] With that, what qualifies as an emotional object in your lens given that this isn’t a foreign topic in the world we operate in?

BEN—I absolutely loved reading that… “…the pinnacle training ground of emotional design with Rolls Royce - and that has made me more of a writer…” There is a ton going on in that thought.

In regards to the most emotional object in my life. You’d think I’d have an answer if I’m the one who asked it. [Laughter] I’m struggling with it a bit. For me it is perhaps any object that I personally have an emotional attachment to. The first knee-jerk reaction was a great pair of worn jeans. Could be a $20 pair or something significantly more expensive… But they become a sort of extension of me. I feel “safe” with them on. I feel comfortable - not as in just physical comfort, but maybe aesthetic comfort. Since I tend to dress in a uniform and wear the same pair repeatedly I truly feel “myself” when wearing them. A physical product that is an extension of myself. 

I think it might be fair to say no object is emotional when it is first made. It only becomes emotional when its owner imbues emotion onto/into it?

Or! Is it as simple as: Would you feel a sincere sense of loss emotionally if you physically lost the object?

ROTENDA—I think it’s both ways. Using RR as an example, some projects are a brief on how a client wants to feel, the task there becomes to evoke them - and the client can evoke them to a degree when they use/simply see the car. 

BEN—The single cigarette holder. Perhaps the most emotional object this project has produced outside of the marble hanger. What's interesting is, I don't think I would have called it an emotional object when I first designed it in 2021. Forever ago in internet years. [Laughter] But yeah, it was born from the frequent trips to Paris at that time...the whole cafe culture scene. Late dinners with Gabe Stulman, etc. It has less to do with smoking and more to do with ritual and honestly a bit of theatre. But yes, this idea of it being an emotional object came quite a few months after it launched. People would share their stories of its use in their lives etc. (Chris Bain has an amazing one with a priest I believe.) What was most mentioned was the feeling of it in-hand. Specifically the weight. The weight seemed to grab everyone. We used 316L stainless steel, milled from a single billet round of it, which is what Rolex (used) to use, Audemar still uses, as well as others in the watch space. It's a super dense and inert metal. Has such a lovely weight and takes a brushed finish so well. I personally find it really, really beautiful. The comment from so many people was that it felt expensive, that it felt incredibly solid, that it felt more refined than they expected. After that, less so overall, was the temperature. Which is my favorite feature of it. You might have it in your pocket, likely well into the evening, and it absorbs your body temperature. You might hand it to a friend and it still has that warmth that only solid metals seem to hold. That temperature, especially so with it being body temperature, made the object especially "human" for people...whether they knew it or not. Those comments about weight and temperature kind of opened my eyes to what makes a proper Ben Edgar object. The emotions you experience using, touching, seeing an object. Even more so when it's associated with this idea of a post-dinner cigarette. This moment, often shared with a friend or a loved one. The light drug that is tobacco, etc.

A lot going on. I could keep rambling on this forever...does any of this make sense? What are your thoughts on how materials, weight, temperature, etc affect how we connect with the objects in our lives?

ROTENDA—This is incredibly put! In reading this I felt to have traveled into the world of owning/experiencing one. I’m also just pleased to see this particular object being on top of the list of emotional expressions of the Ben Edgar project. 

Allow me to follow up by acknowledging the great effect this product does in catering for a human condition which many can relate to. Being at the comfort of feeling secure. That loose cigarette a friend gave you and it’s not breaking in your pocket or your bag, it confidently reminds you that your future moment of having a cigarette is assured. That feeling…is pleasant.

BEN—Yes! The comfort in knowing it’s there, in your pocket, waiting. 

ROTENDA—The things that make that moment one of a kind, are the experiences you build towards having that smoke. Picking it up, recognizing the weight, the threads perfectly engineered to screw on and off with intention… the next follows you throw it back in your purse or pocket… you can’t wait to experience all that. The ground of all that is the material, the temperature and the respect given to it (amazing when you see how that works extends in brands like Rolex you mentioned). It behaves based on conditions, whether that’s temperature or knocking it on the floor- it has a way of reminding you of it’s conditional existence, and that just allows for a natural bridge of being attached/connected to it! It’s heavy! Matters so much! Like saying “I’m here and will be with you.” I can’t imagine it being some sort bamboo tube. 

BEN—I was just going to say the same about material. I have this obsession with materials that communicate confidence. I’ve had people suggest I make a much more affordable version in plastic… In my head, it loses all of its meaning when not made of a truly confidence inspiring material.

ROTENDA—Oh, can I say this? Speaking of materials, didn’t we talk about a ceramic version? I still think it could be fun! Single bit milled ceramic - feels like research in itself [Laughter]. Well, my nod here is to also credit how materials are an essential part in building how we connect and experience life. Those experiences cater to very this subject, emotions. 

BEN—I still think about the ceramic version often! I don’t want to get too into the details here, but how it closes is still something I/we haven’t resolved yet. But…I have some ideas. Then there is the question of color? Pure white doesn’t seem to work. Oddly the first color that comes to mind is a really elegant…pink. Unsure why. Pink ceramic.

ROTENDA—Pink! You touched on something I would like to circle back on - to quote you here: “…I don't think I would have called it an emotional object when I first designed it…” Our comments/reflections on the Cigarette Holder may be perfectly suggesting that an object can be emotional if the maker never intended for it to be emotional.At what point does an object stop belonging to its maker emotionally and start belonging to the participant?

BEN—Maybe a quick answer to that one is already out there with: 

“The artist performs only one part of the creative process. The onlooker completes it, and it is the onlooker that has the last word.” - Duchamp

But back to the object itself, small detail in relation to this… I’ve thought of designing a separate version of the Cigarette Holder that doesn’t have the “Benjamin Edgar” branding on it for this exact reason. I actually don’t want to have any ownership over the object. I much prefer the person who has it inhand have it be entirely theirs. And I wonder if my name/logo on it changes their ability to have that, you know?

And yeah, whole other topic, but I’m struggling with “user” / “owner” etc as well throughout this… Don’t love them. Thought about “steward” but…it’s a bit much.

ROTENDA—Participants… or maybe… Patrons! Hmmm, doesn’t feel there yet.

On no logos, I immediately think of sculptures. The cigarette holder is such a Ben Edgar recognizable object, with its familiarity built over time, it could holder that recognition logo free. A BMW M2 with no BMW logo!

BEN—Maybe it’s time to make one that is completely free of embellishment. My instant reaction even in typing that though…it that it becomes clinical. Something gets lost.

Have to say…this has been one intense Extended Exchange here. Feel like we could chat on this forever. But honestly it reminds me, something I’ve been needing lately honestly, to remember all things we design start from some emotion. And it’s important to ensure that emotion finds its way into the final production object. It’s really the spirit of the object, etc.

ROTENDA—We definitely can keep going on this one, but what a pleasure to have it over the Single Cigarette Holder!

BEN—I agree man, it’s fascinating, if not an honor to see how the product has continued to resonate with people. Also, to be candid, creators - myself very much included - have a tendency to fall out of love with their own creations or time…for a variety of reasons. But the Single Cigarette Holder has stuck with me…almost feels like I didn’t create it. Love that feeling.

And…time to come up for air. [Laughter] as we do, what song would you close this Extended Exchange out with? 

Mine is one that I first heard on a Nowness video years ago and the full version was never released. It popped into my head last week and was thrilled to see the full version is now available. Last Movement of Hope by Benjamin Clementine. Just such a beautiful song.

ROTENDA—He’s such a great artist! It feels right to close this one with something from Nick Cave - I feel he’s great with expressing emotions, even in rhythm only and no lyrics. [Chuckle] I’ll pick the song Hollywood from him. Has a level of cautioning intensity!