BEN—First, where are you currently and what time is it while you're answering these? We need to give more context,

ROTENDA—I’m at home in Munich, currently 9:27 AM, and I’m still in bed. Looks like it’s a sunny day through the windows. How about at your ends? Where are you and what time is it? 

BEN—It's 9:53 AM on a Saturday and I'm at home in Chicago enjoying some of the first proper spring weather.

New one, what's the most memorable thing you encountered in the past 30 days?

ROTENDA—I have to say the design presentation I delivered in the studio a week ago. Not leaning on its success, but I just really had fun with it. They don’t come often I feel. Do you have one too? If not, I have to positively ask the least memorable. [Laughter]

BEN—Ah yes! I wish I could have been a fly on the wall for that presentation. One day. Regarding the most memorable on my end, hmmm. I flew from Chicago to LA, there and back in 24 hours, to go to Playlab’s 21st birthday/anniversary party. What they’ve built stands as such a reminder to myself, and anyone else really, about what intense nourished creativity, passion for the work, and an incredible sense of joy can do. I do truly love that company. Not sure if flying there and back, with a connection, was the best idea. Well, maybe that’s what made it memorable. [Laughter]

BEN—Alright, vast topic here for this month...logos. And for the sake of simplicity, we'll group logos, icons, wordmarks, etc all into one. We're focused on the idea of what I'll call "small visual packages" that identify a company, product, brand, etc. First question to set a bit of tone, what are 3 logos you find incredibly compelling?

Mine would likely be:

1 - Link. The Sherwin Williams Cover the Earth logo. So incredibly literal while still being elegant in my view.

2 - Link. Left-field one here, but I've been very into Herno's Laminar collection and find the script of it just beautiful while also looking and feeling very much like their product itself does.

3 - Link. This is a really abstract one, the really, really early cave painting where the maker would place their hand on the cave wall and then blow/spit pigment from their mouth creating a stencil. I wonder if you could argue that it's one of the oldest logos? I find it so profound really.

ROTENDA—What a stretch with the cave paintings! I am with you on them being one of the oldest logos. Not only were they motifs of their tribes, but they would use them to make territories. Hmmm. Is it modern graffiti?

BEN—I really do see them as logos rather than what we think of as graffiti. I think of graffiti actually as advertisments…but that’s a whole other topic.

ROTENDA—3 logos: 

1 - Link. The Shell Corporation logo. Can we equate it to that of Apple? The exercise is just literal, it’s a shell. And I think that’s orange/red of theirs, is such a visually striking colour.  

2 - Link. This is in no order but I feel like I should’ve mentioned this one first; the original logo of the high-end furniture brand Knoll. It’s like a foundation of architectural building—and quite an expression of Massimo Vignelli’s approach to clarity, simplicity and timelessness.

3 - Link. I’m still learning why, but the Lacoste logo fits the chain. Perhaps it’s the “relatability” factor of it. Oops! I might have to take this back and say the New York Times masthead. Its element of authority draws me. Whilst being historic, it managed to stay relevant in the modern world.

BEN—Good point on the Shell logo. While I’m indeed known for loving Apple a bit too much, at least in a certain era, I’d have to agree that Shell logo wins out on this one.

Picked the topic of logos/symbols for this month as the Flying Fish BEOC logo is, for the first time, on a product we're shipping which is the Team Hat. While it somewhat breaks the rules by using a bit of text, it is the first true symbol or illustrated logo for the company. What's interesting is that I didn't set out to design a logo for the company. Instead, it came from my love of old-world metal hallmarks and their ability to be both clunky and elegant at the same time. A few years ago my great friend Max introduced them to me, their purpose, and I've truly fallen in love with them. I have this massive Illustrator file where I practice creating hallmark inspired illustrations as a sort of meditative design practice and the flying fish happened to be one of those.

When I first started floating these hallmark style illustrations over to you on text, what was your initial reaction?

ROTENDA—There was a moment of time traveling. They sure felt like motifs that have existed before, transported the memory back to when small logos were detailed to feel precious. Do you see them getting used in a larger scale? Or even in colour.

BEN—Interesting with the time travel reference! With the scale question…the flag was the first step in this direction. Color? Actually not yet. Should have brought this up as well, but I did have that first real steel hallmark stamp for metal stamping. I’d like to explore more the material it’s knocked into before color. Still have a bunch to learn there.

What's the job of a logo in your view?

ROTENDA—I think the main task at hand is to symbolize something. I also think there’s been many forms of doing so these days beyond company branding; be it a way of texting, an emoji that gets associated to a group (I think you’ve got a story on this one), a soundtrack, dressing style etc. It’s a ticket of ownership. Steve Job’s black turtleneck, washed blue jeans and a pair of New Balance fits this conversation excellently, as a nod to a “personal logo”. [Laughter] How can I forget the glasses he wore. In my view, I think they’re essentially identifiers or serial numbers that get to set and communicate a vision of something without a paragraph of explanation attached to it. It’s easy to remember.

BEN—“A ticket of ownership” - wow! What a quote.

ROTENDA—What would you say is the job of the Flying Fish BEOC logo for the company?

BEN—It’s interesting. Just two days ago, I had a friend who’s design sense and taste I hold quite high send me a note after seeing the flag photoshoot commenting that they “truly loved this new logo” and it kind of took me by surprise. It made me wonder what he saw. From my end, if you look at the logo’s design, one could fairly say that it’s not exactly aesthetically beautiful. It’s instead a bit like a lot of the objects: visually intriguing but also a bit confusing or even odd. And maybe “visually intriguing but also a bit confusing or even odd” is close to explaining the brand that is Ben Edgar. 

We didn’t get into the very distinct difference between a brand and logo on this one. Next time. Probably need liek a 8 part series on that topic. [Laughter]

BEN—Maybe a higher level question I should have started with. How important are logos and their application to you in your design, industrial or otherwise, practice? I know you've been working on a specific one for a bit.

ROTENDA—[Laughter] It’s definitely a high level question! I still feel like I’m learning the use of logomarks in design. What happens when an object does not have a logo? Does the object itself become a logo? I think so. There’s sure going to be motifs or visual cues that suggest where it’s coming from, which I think can be multidimensional, but exist in unity when applied. The one you mentioned I’ve been working on, “Bound in Grace”, feels very sacred already to me. Originally an A4 ink pen artwork from 11 years ago, it’s probably the first time I create a motif of association which was never set to be one.

BEN—Very much in line with the “Bound in Grace” motif you’ve been working on as it’s perhaps a logo for your pure art practice... A funny thought I've always had when at an art museum, if an artist put their signature in the center of the painting, rather than the standard bottom left/right, how wild that would feel. It would turn their signature into a logo in many ways wouldn't it? This perhaps starts to poke at what a logo is philosophically.

ROTENDA—I have to say I enjoyed reading that thought. And I agree with you, it would turn into a logo. I used to never put a signature on the artworks for longest time, and just very recently started exploring integrating the signature in the artwork itself. You kind of have to find it. Begs to ask, is the only purpose of a signature on the artwork to mark who made the work?

BEN—I think that’s really only one element of the signature. I’ve often wondered if a logo should only be applied to mark the creation as complete. It’s effectively the final brush stroke. Though, we all know that isn’t really how logos are used in our world today. In fact it would seem many products are created to support the logo itself. It’s an interesting one to think on.

Back to the Flying Fish BEOC logo. Something fascinating happened when placing it on a flag, something beyond just increases its size and scale. There was a moment where I was almost uncomfortable with it. Funny how flags and colors can spark rather real feelings of positivity, fear, belonging, etc. 

ROTENDA—A crowd at a football game just flagged (no pun intended) in my head with those 3 words there. 

With regard to something happening with the flag, hard not to say “the fish is flying”. The flag turned to be this “unintentional” visual celebration to the logo itself. Fly the flag and the fish will fly.

BEN—I can honestly say I hadn’t thought of that connection until just reading this…[Laughter]

Do you often wear logoed clothing? T-shirts, hoodie, jackets, etc?

ROTENDA—I am not a fan of logoed clothing. Though I do love logoed hoodies. Have a couple of those! I know you don’t wear a lot of logos yourself? And speaking of hoodies, we’re seeing the Teams Hat with the Flying Fish BEOC logo now, are we going to see a Teams Hoodie? [Laughter] we might need a sport too!

BEN—Hoodies are actually about to go into production, and in Portugal this time. Just as soon as I can figure out the elegant placement of the flying fish.

And to close us out, a single song you find best matches this extended exchange

ROTENDA—Donna Flora (Remastered) by Napoli Centrale

And what are you playing after this?

BEN—Oddly have had this Hendrix thing lately. Going to have to go with Fire by Jimmy Hendrix