BEN—As usual, where are you right now, what time is it, and what's the weather looking like?
ROTENDA—Reporting live 09:57 AM from Munich, sun is up and bright today, looking like it’s going to be a very hot day! You in Chicago? How’s the weather there?
BEN—Just finished watching the Austrian F1 race, it's a bit after 10 AM here when I’m getting back to these questions. Looking like another hot sunny one today in Chicago…likely another good day for a swim in the lake.
Just did a collaboration a couple weeks ago with Graphpaper Japan and we have another more abstract collaboration with BEAMS Japan that we’ve been working on for at least 6 months coming to close. To skip ahead a bit and really just get it out of the way...what defines a good collaboration in your view?
ROTENDA—You know, this is a question I feel has, and still is evolving in my understanding of it. I think a good collaboration is defined by several elements that ensure the process and results are equally enriching and meaningful. To name a few that come to my mind right now; I would say shared vision, mutual respect, open communication, and creative tension. [Laughter] That last one is tricky as you run with it from start to end… and this is where the emotional intelligence of parties collaborating is reflected. Creative tension is a great thing though! Actually, do you and I have enough of it? [Laughter]. Now would love to hear your view, what defines a good collaboration for you?
BEN—I’m not sure I add much to that answer! [Laugher] Incredibly thoughtful and concise notes. My quick answer to this is always “the sum has to be greater than the parts” but that is perhaps a bit like just telling someone how the movie ends when they asked you if you liked it or not. [Laughter] I think your note on creative tension one is likely what makes a collaboration with the most magic. There almost needs to be this unexpectedness. Almost like it should draw you in and instantly beg the question “I wondered how this came together?! How did the two parties work together? What was the process like?” The creative tension should, maybe, be really evident in the final product.
Back to what actually prompted this topic this month was the project that was released a couple weeks ago with Graphpaper in Japan which was very much in that zone. They have their beautiful cut and sewn t-shirts and the goal was to apply a graphic created by myself on those t-shirts that was very much directly showing Benjamin Edgar is working with Graphpaper Japan. Super direct and simple in concept. Those things can come across very...one-dimensional. The trick we played was to make something that looked very familiar to my brand language and then to jumble, or weave, the two brands names together to create something new. Something elegantly confusing was my hope. When you think of most this brand x that brand collaborations, what makes one stand out?
ROTENDA—Oneness. I think your note on the Graphpaper Japan collaboration perfectly compliments my thought; it’s seeing all parts holistically fitting as one. Not only is the vision executed, but the sum of the parts are balanced on both sides without needing a marketing plot explaining why the parts fit. It’s perhaps not that easier to strike the best collaboration - we still struggle with manufacturers sometimes!
BEN—Interesting note on not needing a marketing plot. I got back and forth on this. I love storytelling. It’s such a beautiful way to build a brand, object, etc. But… There is this quote that stings a bit everytime I think of it: “If you have to explain the joke, it’s not funny.” And sometimes storytelling, especially in collaborations, kind of feels like that.
And with that, the next painfully obvious question: Are we oversaturated with collaborations? I feel like simply asking that question alone is oversaturated. [Laughter]
ROTENDA—That just got some sweat running down my face! [Laughter]. I think we are! Perhaps if they didn’t feel so recycled and “continued collaboration” with a party you’ve successfully worked with was a thing with many brands, I think that would speak more on the values the collaborators hold, not only in the process but also the projects themselves over time. A good collaboration just aging well… you know! Today, I feel they’ve become too much of fleeting moments feeding into the pace of the scroll.
Hold up! I can feel myself almost about to open a whole new dialogue with that, but I would like to ask your view again on this one, are we oversaturated with collaborations?
BEN—My cynical answer is an immediate…yes! [Laughter] Maybe we’re oversaturated with ones that are a bit too forgettable. I’ve been guilty of doing these myself. But, I really dislike emphatically stating that something is “over” as if I have some authority over it. That's a bit ridiculous. Instead, I think we’ve been at this really long inflection point (can that even exist? [Laughter]) of things simply just not being that interesting and it being really noisy so nothing is standing out. If that makes sense?
What's the most interesting collaboration you've seen to date?
ROTENDA—Man! That’s a tough one. There’s so many I’m really thinking what has held up the value in me…[Laughter] How we work! It’s on all parts multidimensional and with no actual process.
You really had me with that question. I'll have to somehow find a place for an answer in the next Extended Exchanges. Maybe I leave this note: “Bovet 1822 and Rolls-Royce for the Boat Tail.”
What’s one for you?
BEN—I really, really loved the “soul” that was the Virgil x Ikea stuff. To be honest not every piece totally grabbed me, etc, but his work was often more about the idea just as much as the product. And the idea behind that one really expanded my view of simply what is possible. The scale felt amazing. I have the chair across from me right now.
It’s funny, I just remembered I have that one coming up with Tyrrell Winston that we haven’t shared anything about. I don’t want to ruin it, but selfishly I really like the way that one works in that the end product is almost… Actually, this should have been my answer above: I like when the end product of a collaboration is almost like the residue left over from the process of the two parties working together. That’s a weird way to phrase it, I hope it makes sense.
And yes, 100% how we work. You have this super-power of being able to see a very simple 2D Illustrator drawing I’ve made and understand it entirely in 3D. [Laughter] It’s surreal.
ROTENDA—All holistic! Virgil was just so excellent at that, bringing the best out of both parties. I think his lectures are a great example too, felt like collaborations… student x teacher.
BEN—And with that, the idea of you and I being collaborators as we work on a concept. Or any manufacturer we work with being a collaborator. Etc. This is something we've never really talked about, how do you find the process of us designing an object together as we navigate our individual ideas?
ROTENDA—It’s funny! Our process is no process. One may think there’s danger in that, but we actually found that there’s freedom in it. How we did the Self Portrait Vase is nowhere comparable to the Knock Card Holder. Navigating ideas is more a case of living. Going from a meal you had at a restaurant to songs we’ll exchange. Staying curious and going beyond the thought.
Asking this question this way almost feels contradictory. Would you say there’s a “process” of an object journey we found least enjoyable? If so, why?
BEN—Fair point! Fortunately or unfortunately there really isn’t a process. I think you’re right in that it comes from being endlessly curious about the world around us. And simply wanting to contribute to the world around us. Our collaboration is this rather long and slow process over the past few years learning how each other work and think. So by the time it gets to the technical drawings of an object we’re already super on the same page. This likely wasn’t a helpful answer for the reader. [Laughter]
In regards to the least enjoyable…great question. I’m a generally anxious person when it comes time to sample things or when we get close to saying something is truly done. There is very much this nagging doubt that we missed something or it’s “not good enough” which is really subjective anyway. What about you, what’s the worst part?
ROTENDA—[Laughter] The suppliers won’t like this… the process in which we clearly describe finish requests and the opposite is executed. [Laughter] tricky to move around without being too harsh, but I think we’re bettering its handling. You’re great at explaining things, though sometimes you don’t think so! [Laughter] But, I appreciate that we can use many mediums, whether 2D or 3D to ease the process.
BEN—Jony Ive did an interview recently where he talks about the early stages of the design of something and how fragile ideas are during that time. He has this very strong stance that opinions are not ideas. He holds ideas very high and, seemingly, opinions very low in comparison. I deeply agree with him. During collaboration, if things become unbalanced and one person in the room is kind of rolling over everyone else's ideas or is simply responding with opinions on the ideas...it totally kills the process. It kills the vibe. So much can get lost. What's the best way to navigate that during a collaboration?
ROTENDA—This is a great question. The two points I mentioned in opening this exchange; open communication and emotional intelligence. It’s great when you have someone in the room holding the qualities to be able to inspire opinions out of collaborators without them feeling any shame on whether the opinion/idea is of low level, those opinions are to inspire a collective of ideas to make something great. The “kid” in us would want to express everything in their head, and I think keeping that kid in contributing, goes a long way. Emotionally too, as the process of collaborating is in itself emotional. Why his ideas over mine? Etc.
BEN—Excellent point on the emotional intelligence side of things. This whole interview could be about emotional intelligence. Maybe that’s a future one.
ROTENDA—Whilst still on Jony Ive without going too far backwards. Though little information is out there about it, how do you see what he’s establishing with LoveFrom, this idea of a multi/mixed creatives collective could change the way individuals/brands collaborate?
BEN—Man. I want to hang out in their studios so badly! Anything. I want to sit in meetings, listen, etc. I am truly fascinated by what they’re up to. I’m not sure if there is anything that grabs me more in the current design world than what they’re up to behind those closed doors.
I’m not even sure what to call what they’re doing…calling it a creative agency or whatever feels woefully short based on my understanding of the people they have. I believe having an especially wide-range of disciplines on a team is the ultimate goal. And for me, it’s the end goal.
If you could collaborate with anyone, any brand, any manufacturer. Who would it be?
ROTENDA—Phew! You're really getting me with these! [Laughter] At the moment, Baccarat. I would love to learn about crystals.
Who’s it for you?
BEN—Perfect answer. And I’ve seen some of the glass work you’re doing! Need to make that happen.
I’ve joked that the one thing in the world I want to design the most is the most beautiful paddle shifter for a car. I joke, but I wonder if I deep down that I’m being quite honest. [Laughter] Maybe for Aston Martin or some upstart car brand that doesn’t exist yet. I guess another answer would be to work with Monumental Labs to create a whole series of marble objects. I suppose we should reach out to them…
Lastly. My song selection this month to close us out is: Mine will be Ethiopians Live It Out by Burning Spear. Yours?
ROTENDA—It’s time for marble please! We need that! And…a song I’m wrapping this one with is Freedom Is a Voice by Bobby McFerrin.
ROTENDA—Reporting live 09:57 AM from Munich, sun is up and bright today, looking like it’s going to be a very hot day! You in Chicago? How’s the weather there?
BEN—Just finished watching the Austrian F1 race, it's a bit after 10 AM here when I’m getting back to these questions. Looking like another hot sunny one today in Chicago…likely another good day for a swim in the lake.
Just did a collaboration a couple weeks ago with Graphpaper Japan and we have another more abstract collaboration with BEAMS Japan that we’ve been working on for at least 6 months coming to close. To skip ahead a bit and really just get it out of the way...what defines a good collaboration in your view?
ROTENDA—You know, this is a question I feel has, and still is evolving in my understanding of it. I think a good collaboration is defined by several elements that ensure the process and results are equally enriching and meaningful. To name a few that come to my mind right now; I would say shared vision, mutual respect, open communication, and creative tension. [Laughter] That last one is tricky as you run with it from start to end… and this is where the emotional intelligence of parties collaborating is reflected. Creative tension is a great thing though! Actually, do you and I have enough of it? [Laughter]. Now would love to hear your view, what defines a good collaboration for you?
BEN—I’m not sure I add much to that answer! [Laugher] Incredibly thoughtful and concise notes. My quick answer to this is always “the sum has to be greater than the parts” but that is perhaps a bit like just telling someone how the movie ends when they asked you if you liked it or not. [Laughter] I think your note on creative tension one is likely what makes a collaboration with the most magic. There almost needs to be this unexpectedness. Almost like it should draw you in and instantly beg the question “I wondered how this came together?! How did the two parties work together? What was the process like?” The creative tension should, maybe, be really evident in the final product.
Back to what actually prompted this topic this month was the project that was released a couple weeks ago with Graphpaper in Japan which was very much in that zone. They have their beautiful cut and sewn t-shirts and the goal was to apply a graphic created by myself on those t-shirts that was very much directly showing Benjamin Edgar is working with Graphpaper Japan. Super direct and simple in concept. Those things can come across very...one-dimensional. The trick we played was to make something that looked very familiar to my brand language and then to jumble, or weave, the two brands names together to create something new. Something elegantly confusing was my hope. When you think of most this brand x that brand collaborations, what makes one stand out?
ROTENDA—Oneness. I think your note on the Graphpaper Japan collaboration perfectly compliments my thought; it’s seeing all parts holistically fitting as one. Not only is the vision executed, but the sum of the parts are balanced on both sides without needing a marketing plot explaining why the parts fit. It’s perhaps not that easier to strike the best collaboration - we still struggle with manufacturers sometimes!
BEN—Interesting note on not needing a marketing plot. I got back and forth on this. I love storytelling. It’s such a beautiful way to build a brand, object, etc. But… There is this quote that stings a bit everytime I think of it: “If you have to explain the joke, it’s not funny.” And sometimes storytelling, especially in collaborations, kind of feels like that.
And with that, the next painfully obvious question: Are we oversaturated with collaborations? I feel like simply asking that question alone is oversaturated. [Laughter]
ROTENDA—That just got some sweat running down my face! [Laughter]. I think we are! Perhaps if they didn’t feel so recycled and “continued collaboration” with a party you’ve successfully worked with was a thing with many brands, I think that would speak more on the values the collaborators hold, not only in the process but also the projects themselves over time. A good collaboration just aging well… you know! Today, I feel they’ve become too much of fleeting moments feeding into the pace of the scroll.
Hold up! I can feel myself almost about to open a whole new dialogue with that, but I would like to ask your view again on this one, are we oversaturated with collaborations?
BEN—My cynical answer is an immediate…yes! [Laughter] Maybe we’re oversaturated with ones that are a bit too forgettable. I’ve been guilty of doing these myself. But, I really dislike emphatically stating that something is “over” as if I have some authority over it. That's a bit ridiculous. Instead, I think we’ve been at this really long inflection point (can that even exist? [Laughter]) of things simply just not being that interesting and it being really noisy so nothing is standing out. If that makes sense?
What's the most interesting collaboration you've seen to date?
ROTENDA—Man! That’s a tough one. There’s so many I’m really thinking what has held up the value in me…[Laughter] How we work! It’s on all parts multidimensional and with no actual process.
You really had me with that question. I'll have to somehow find a place for an answer in the next Extended Exchanges. Maybe I leave this note: “Bovet 1822 and Rolls-Royce for the Boat Tail.”
What’s one for you?
BEN—I really, really loved the “soul” that was the Virgil x Ikea stuff. To be honest not every piece totally grabbed me, etc, but his work was often more about the idea just as much as the product. And the idea behind that one really expanded my view of simply what is possible. The scale felt amazing. I have the chair across from me right now.
It’s funny, I just remembered I have that one coming up with Tyrrell Winston that we haven’t shared anything about. I don’t want to ruin it, but selfishly I really like the way that one works in that the end product is almost… Actually, this should have been my answer above: I like when the end product of a collaboration is almost like the residue left over from the process of the two parties working together. That’s a weird way to phrase it, I hope it makes sense.
And yes, 100% how we work. You have this super-power of being able to see a very simple 2D Illustrator drawing I’ve made and understand it entirely in 3D. [Laughter] It’s surreal.
ROTENDA—All holistic! Virgil was just so excellent at that, bringing the best out of both parties. I think his lectures are a great example too, felt like collaborations… student x teacher.
BEN—And with that, the idea of you and I being collaborators as we work on a concept. Or any manufacturer we work with being a collaborator. Etc. This is something we've never really talked about, how do you find the process of us designing an object together as we navigate our individual ideas?
ROTENDA—It’s funny! Our process is no process. One may think there’s danger in that, but we actually found that there’s freedom in it. How we did the Self Portrait Vase is nowhere comparable to the Knock Card Holder. Navigating ideas is more a case of living. Going from a meal you had at a restaurant to songs we’ll exchange. Staying curious and going beyond the thought.
Asking this question this way almost feels contradictory. Would you say there’s a “process” of an object journey we found least enjoyable? If so, why?
BEN—Fair point! Fortunately or unfortunately there really isn’t a process. I think you’re right in that it comes from being endlessly curious about the world around us. And simply wanting to contribute to the world around us. Our collaboration is this rather long and slow process over the past few years learning how each other work and think. So by the time it gets to the technical drawings of an object we’re already super on the same page. This likely wasn’t a helpful answer for the reader. [Laughter]
In regards to the least enjoyable…great question. I’m a generally anxious person when it comes time to sample things or when we get close to saying something is truly done. There is very much this nagging doubt that we missed something or it’s “not good enough” which is really subjective anyway. What about you, what’s the worst part?
ROTENDA—[Laughter] The suppliers won’t like this… the process in which we clearly describe finish requests and the opposite is executed. [Laughter] tricky to move around without being too harsh, but I think we’re bettering its handling. You’re great at explaining things, though sometimes you don’t think so! [Laughter] But, I appreciate that we can use many mediums, whether 2D or 3D to ease the process.
BEN—Jony Ive did an interview recently where he talks about the early stages of the design of something and how fragile ideas are during that time. He has this very strong stance that opinions are not ideas. He holds ideas very high and, seemingly, opinions very low in comparison. I deeply agree with him. During collaboration, if things become unbalanced and one person in the room is kind of rolling over everyone else's ideas or is simply responding with opinions on the ideas...it totally kills the process. It kills the vibe. So much can get lost. What's the best way to navigate that during a collaboration?
ROTENDA—This is a great question. The two points I mentioned in opening this exchange; open communication and emotional intelligence. It’s great when you have someone in the room holding the qualities to be able to inspire opinions out of collaborators without them feeling any shame on whether the opinion/idea is of low level, those opinions are to inspire a collective of ideas to make something great. The “kid” in us would want to express everything in their head, and I think keeping that kid in contributing, goes a long way. Emotionally too, as the process of collaborating is in itself emotional. Why his ideas over mine? Etc.
BEN—Excellent point on the emotional intelligence side of things. This whole interview could be about emotional intelligence. Maybe that’s a future one.
ROTENDA—Whilst still on Jony Ive without going too far backwards. Though little information is out there about it, how do you see what he’s establishing with LoveFrom, this idea of a multi/mixed creatives collective could change the way individuals/brands collaborate?
BEN—Man. I want to hang out in their studios so badly! Anything. I want to sit in meetings, listen, etc. I am truly fascinated by what they’re up to. I’m not sure if there is anything that grabs me more in the current design world than what they’re up to behind those closed doors.
I’m not even sure what to call what they’re doing…calling it a creative agency or whatever feels woefully short based on my understanding of the people they have. I believe having an especially wide-range of disciplines on a team is the ultimate goal. And for me, it’s the end goal.
If you could collaborate with anyone, any brand, any manufacturer. Who would it be?
ROTENDA—Phew! You're really getting me with these! [Laughter] At the moment, Baccarat. I would love to learn about crystals.
Who’s it for you?
BEN—Perfect answer. And I’ve seen some of the glass work you’re doing! Need to make that happen.
I’ve joked that the one thing in the world I want to design the most is the most beautiful paddle shifter for a car. I joke, but I wonder if I deep down that I’m being quite honest. [Laughter] Maybe for Aston Martin or some upstart car brand that doesn’t exist yet. I guess another answer would be to work with Monumental Labs to create a whole series of marble objects. I suppose we should reach out to them…
Lastly. My song selection this month to close us out is: Mine will be Ethiopians Live It Out by Burning Spear. Yours?
ROTENDA—It’s time for marble please! We need that! And…a song I’m wrapping this one with is Freedom Is a Voice by Bobby McFerrin.
