BEN—Fitting for the topic...I'm typing this while on a flight to NYC for a few meetings and hopefully a bit of fun. A trip, route, process I do so often that it should be mundane/routine by now...but thankfully I still love it. The airports, flights, being in motion, etc. More on that later. Rotenda, where do you find yourself currently?

ROTENDA—The calls and messages we catch while you’re traveling are...(having noted before) different! Whilst I type this, I’m on a train ride home, it’s 6:55pm, quite a rainy and windy day. How about your ends? How’s it in NYC? 

BEN—NYC is having just a perfect fall season really. I was out for a walk in Central Park earlier and it was fantastic with the leaves changing, etc.

Before we jump into it all, per usual, what’s the most interesting thing you've seen in the past 30 days?

ROTENDA—Without a second thought, I will pick both floors of Virgil’s exhibition in Paris. Less its visual nature, but more so the energy you cannot transport. I know you said a “thing” … there are lots I can point at, but let’s document that into one thing. An experience. 

You’ve been on a wild Ferrari spotting spree [Laughter] as Chris Bain puts it! What’s been the most interesting of your past 30 days? 

BEN—I truly am a bit obsessed with cars. [Laughter] 

For me...I'd have to say it was my stay at the new Hotel Masse in Paris. Also, incredibly fitting for our topic this month. I'd use the word "balance" to describe it. It's very Parisian - which I love, very elegant - as most things in Paris are, but it had this perfect balance to it. Great hotels, amongst so many other things they do to the mind, make you want to stay a bit longer than you should. Hotel Masse definitely did that. Already planning a trip back. 

ROTENDA—That! Would you or have you ever written a hotel review? 

BEN—Actually…I haven’t. Hadn’t even thought of doing that. I’m not against leaving reviews…well…maybe I am. [Laughter] I mean, the best review is telling your friends how much you like something, right?!

ROTENDA—1,000!

BEN—Travel. The topic came to me while sitting in Paris a few weeks ago at a cafe the evening before you arrived there from Munich. As cliche as it is…I honestly could sit at a Parisian cafe from 7PM till the late evening for the rest of my life and never get bored of it.

We mentioned it briefly in last month's Extended Exchange, but it's important to note that we work together entirely remotely. I think we’ve only hung in-person like three instances [Laught]. So travel is an inherent part of our work, process, etc. And for what it's worth, I like it that way. I prefer needing to travel often. I enjoy the motion. I feel like travel requires you to be curious and I feel incredibly lucky to have that prompt often. And what I love most of all is how it really never gets old. And, of course, it's a bit cliche but that motion and curiosity does seem to generate inspiration in a really reliable way. 

Zoomed out of our specific trips…when you think of travel, what’s the first word or thought that comes to mind? 

ROTENDA—Dining. It’s truly the first. Which may seem crazy to travel and hang for dinner. But it feels to be a big element of that curiosity search you mention. Searching the menu is fun, and almost often, it’s all entirely a new experience, and there’s an inspiration you cannot find elsewhere in that. It’s almost like, when we dine and hang, we travel routes of ideas that go further than the distance of the trip itself. Which I find refreshing and energizing. The Beams project might be the most traveled object we did - intercontinental mileage. [Laughter]

But to reiterate further - I think the occasion of how we get to communicate ideas or create in different time zones, physically traveling becomes the nature of placing yourself  into a place you allow room for wonder - lands itself to the same level of an idea found/placed in a context it asks for further exploration, the thrill is appetizing, and so is thinking of a restaurant to go to. 

A recollection...one might think we’re having a work trip, but I don’t think we’ve ever met and sat behind our laptops!?

BEN—Yes! Same. First thing I’m checking about a new location before I go is what the food scene is like. It really does define the scene of an area for me. This question of: “What is happening there right now in dining? Where are the artists, creators, hanging out at night restaurant and cafe wise? What are the young chefs making at some tiny new spot?” 

And yeah, we rarely spend any time actually in front of a CAD program or Illustrator, etc. But for me the "work" is in the ideation, discovery, and conversations. Travel is the perfect context for that.

My friend Zac gave me this great quip/quote about travel many years ago. I believe he said it’s important to know if you’re going on a trip or a vacation before you set out. I kind of live by that approach now. The idea that vacations are meant purely for checking out and relaxing the mind, body, etc. Where trips are meant for expansion of the mind, inspiration, work, etc. I don’t go on a lot of vacations as you might imagine. [Laughter] So perhaps the context to set in this chat we’re having is that we went on trips…not vacations. Is that fair to say?

ROTENDA—Absolutely! [Laughter] That had to make me pause for a second and think when was the last time I had a vacation! Like you, I don’t take many. Are we just not needing the relaxation? [Laughter]

BEN—I actually went on my first actual vacation earlier this year. Slight trick to vacation is to ensure you pick a destination where you don’t really know anyone. Makes it easier to truly not work and to check-out a bit.

ROTENDA—In all fairness we went on trips. Relaxing ones. Something about how they’ve been has had me feeling the manner in which they run, allows the trip to be relaxing, regardless the amount of time spent. s/o to Zac, that quote lands perfectly here! L.A. (one of the trips we did) almost scored itself to be a vacation wouldn’t you say? I wonder if that had to do with the breadth of the areas we went… outside the cityscapes. 

BEN—I’m going to get in trouble for this, but LA never feels like a vacation to me. [Laughter] Only if I rent a fun car - my favorites have been the Porsche 718 and the Jaguar F-Type - and drive around in the canyons in the Malibu area. Latigo Canyon is my favorite. I can loop that thing over and over.

I want to dig in on three specific trips we've taken together. Or maybe better said as the trips we took to link in the same city. We'll start with the first one, New York. We didn't have much of an agenda besides hitting some of my favorite restaurants, getting you into a proper hotel, hitting the MoMa, and generally wandering a lot. That was your first trip to America ever, yeah? That's kind of wild to think. With my being a midwesterner, New York is quite a crash course in America. What was your view of New York before you arrived and then during and after? 

ROTENDA—Man, you take me back with that one! And it sounds like it’s a long while ago but it isn't! Hotel was amazing, very friendly staff members. You were so kind to have me comfortably sorted. Endless thank you!

BEN—The Marlton...really is just such a lovely hotel, yeah.

ROTENDA—Landing in New York, I wasn’t in search of the things I’ve learnt of it from a distance, but to experience it through untold experiences/attractions. Meeting there for the first time was legendary in itself to start, and it just perfectly landed that way. We dined [your selection of spots, salute!], we walked, and… just explored the surrounding experience through all lenses. I learnt so much of the culture, the energy, the spirit that drives the city in just that. Couldn’t have asked for more. And MoMa, gracefully placed itself in a day... quite fluid and with ease. Looking back, as light as it may sound, the one corner store with magazines we popped in was a cultural highlight for me. 

With so much I can reflect back into that time being there and after, I’m still with a feeling that holds. There’s something about New York that doesn’t just move — it vibrates. It seeps into your rhythm, rewires your pulse. It becomes the current that hums beneath your skin. If you’re still enough, you don’t just see it — you feel it. I left lighter, fuller. Battery: charged!

Next time we link there again, you know the spot we’re making a revisit! [Laughter]

BEN—Right back to Szechuan Mountain House on St. Marks!! But yes, the energy of New York…that vibration is a very real thing. 

Los Angeles was next. [Laughter] I’m laughing already… I don’t want to speak for you, of course, but is it fair to say it was different than you expected?

ROTENDA—[Laughter] Instantly feeling like I need to tread my own experiences carefully [Laughter]! L.A. was different! Too surprising, and to say the least, it wasn’t what I expected. Very polarizing - but after a while, I had an understanding that… that’s what L.A. is. A few minute drive can land you at an area that would feel like another country. And that also goes from walking one block and turning into another, the difference can be huge. It’s a city of characters. 

To this day, I still laugh back at the experience, not because it was a joke, but what I thought I knew about it felt like a joke— not sure who lied…. The sources or myself. [Laughter] Great with the car, the drives we got to do there were amazing! Must be the first trip we experienced with less walking but more driving. Dining through (as always) - and the amount of houses/yards we kept spotting! 

I can go on and on! But before I can catch myself on a series of my States experiences, I would love you to open up on one we truly cherish from the L.A. trip, our tour at Singer. Top highlight there? 

BEN—Truly still till this day, one of the coolest things I’ve ever gotten to do was a private tour of the Singer factory in Hawthorne. I almost still can’t believe I got to do that. Seriously. Still can’t say thank you enough for arranging that. I don’t want to sound crazy, but for me it was trancendant…to see such a passionate team creating something so niche and having it actually work as a business. I deeply admire that company. And one of my favorite details was seeing Rob’s red 993 sitting out front. Something very special about that.

ROTENDA—I do not think we can do that experience justice in wrapping and packaging it up well. Through the amount of time we spent at the factory, we could only experience everything by being present, given the confidentiality of no pictures, we could only immerse ourselves. It’s right up there, and it was an honour. 

BEN—Yeah, really almost impossible to sum that one up. Honestly in some ways I love that we couldn't take pictures. Exploring only with your eyes in real-time made it so memorable. (For what it's worth, we got almost the exact same tour as Chris Harris did which can be viewed here.)

Alright. Paris! Was just a month or so ago really. Was a somewhat last minute one for me. The Virgil Abloh Archive event was annouced… I wasn’t sure if I was going to be able to make it due to some scheduling stuff, but there was a friends and family dinner thing for it as well and I knew I needed to get out there. I booked a trip out for 3 nights and asked if you could swing over from Munich. I hadn’t been back to Paris in like 3 years or so after being there 2-3 times a year regularly. Was lovely to be back honestly. Very thankful I was able to make the trip. Turned out to be quite a special trip, just incredible. But…let’s start off with your time on the trip… And specifically the archive itself. Would love your thoughts on it. What an experience. And didn’t you come straight from the airport?

ROTENDA—Loved the spontaneous nature of this trip! Right from the airport, hailed an Uber to the exhibition. That in itself was the thrill, knowing we’d be meeting at the door. 

With this one I’d have to extend a great hand of thanks for walking me through almost every piece, even those I knew, you made it feel like the first time!! Applause in order!

With great respect, it didn’t dawn to me that I was about to witness an experience of being that close to V’s work until we were at the store, ha, (which you greatly advised we start at). I’ve been a student, through books, lectures, etc. from a distance, and also allowed for it to exist. I could’ve simply bought things he made, but, having not before, just took the experience to a level of feeling I’ve just begun learning how he thinks. I was right at the library,  the creative library. The curation of the work, the intimacy of the space, and the community interest you saw running in individuals that visited, it was all surreal. It’s up there as one the greatest experiences I’ve ever had, and the big part is that it is forever lasting. And we couldn’t touch a single thing of those with caution, but only witnessed a few that looked to have been moved a few millimeters off their original spot! 

There’s so much to speak on, every stop had its shared moments, which we shared over dinner, and hopefully there’s a day further in some format in which more can be said. That just meant gold. 

BEN—Yeah, I’ll be honest…as I sat to type out my experience at the archive, it felt quite difficult to capture what it felt like. For some of us who were quite close to him and had been around the scene since it all got started, it felt like a high school / family reunion of sorts. Was just so lovely to spend time with so many friends in the context of Virg’s work. Difficult to capture with words. I feel incredibly lucky to be able to experience it all.

Then…onto dining in Paris. While I may not be the biggest fan of French food, I do enjoy it when I’m there. Maybe it’s the magic that comes with sitting outside at a cafe in Paris and watching the world go by while you have a lovely steak frites and a glass of white wine. That said…we did eat at the very newly opened 19 Saint Roch from Pierre Touitou. I have a lot of memories tied to his food. I went to Vivant, his first spot maybe like 7-8 years ago, and really fell in love with his whole approach to food and dining. Was a truly lovely meal in a beautiful space. Curious where you would rank that one… And have to note it felt quite special to see his father Jean dining there as we walked out.

ROTENDA—A legendary spot already! I may just have to say it was just a top day! Right top the exhibition and I’ll equate it with the restaurant. Honestly? 19 Saint Roch lived up to the wait (having missed it the last time I was in Paris) - I’d give it a solid 9. Not only for the food, but for the way it felt. The space, the light, the quiet confidence of it all… it was more an experience than a meal.

BEN—Handful of random ones on travel in general… Do you have a preferred seat when flying? I’m a window guy regardless of what class I’m flying.

ROTENDA—7hr + trips I prefer the aisle, but anything less, I prefer the window. 

Right back at you, when you get to put in frequent flights, does the selection of a seat become ritualistic and you pick the same seating zone? 

BEN—I fly to New York like every two weeks and if I tend to book Delta Comfort and I love seat 10A specifically as it gives me a nice view of Chicago as I leave and Manhattan as we head into land.

With that, what's the longest flight you’ve ever taken? Mine was Los Angeles to Hong Kong in economy for 15+ hours. Too wild.

ROTENDA—Oh! This is a crazy one, 33hrs! Had to fly during the peak period of the COVID pandemic. And the tricky part in that, I didn’t have a choice to choose a route or travel time. Lots of stops, but this was better than the 45 if not 54hrs flight I was first proposed. Long layovers!

BEN—33 hours!! I remember you recounting this whole experience to me. So intense! I always say on intense journeys like that you have to just get into some sort of “agressive zen” where you kind of check out. 

Once you landed, any hotel rituals? I don’t know if it’s a ritual, but I drop my bags and immediately head back downstairs and out for a walk. Even if it’s late at night. Have to shake off the flight, etc.  

ROTENDA—I would love to build one to do with scent. A mood setter. In NY, you however had me thinking of getting a massage on the day of landing. I did that when I touched L.A. felt great! I’d repeat. 

BEN—Yes! Getting a massage post flight - and not like a spa one but a reflexology spot or something similar - is such a lovely little luxury in life. Gives you such a reset. Scent is a good one too. I’ve really been thinking about making some sort of smaller, portable, version of the incense bowl to travel with. I’m not as into candles, and love the idea of the room having a bit of the smells from home.

ROTENDA—Given the depth of this very Extended Exchange, it feels right to acknowledge that this is not about the places we went or our experience in them. But the philosophy in our travel experiences. 

We’ve shared cities, dinners, and creative moments that seem to blur the line between work and life. When you look back at all of it — New York, L.A., Paris — what lessons do you think the classroom of travel and the compass of our friendship has quietly been teaching us all along?

BEN—Wow, what a question. I suppose you may have kind of said it right there… The blur between the two, work and life. In many ways, the object company only exists with that blur. They’re highly emotional objects we’re creating. They’re not terribly focused on direct function or literal usefulness, instead they are things that bring emotional pleasure, mental stimulation, etc. The ideas for them are born not from sitting down in a meeting and saying “We need to make more objects. What should we make?” but instead from conversation. Conversations with myself. Conversation with each other. Conversations in the metaphorical sense with the place I’m in. They come from living life and truly practicing being open to ideas and inspiration as they come to you. And, for me, travel stimulates this. Traveling alone. Traveling with a friend. They seem to turbo charge all of this. Being around newness often. Stepping out of routine. In fact I think quite a few of the objects have been born from being in a new headspace while away from home. Maybe a specific lesson would be just to embrace adventure. Developing and then launching a new object is a journey for sure, a trip…a total adventure. Quite a few similarities I’d say when I stop and think about it. It’ll be really enjoyable at times, it’ll be really hard at times, and it’ll be endlessly surprising the whole way along. 

ROTENDA—Incredibly put! I still don’t know how you do that. [Laughter] Surprises! That's what it is. You just can never know what you’re going to get...and that just wraps it off beautifully over this conversation of travels. It’s more than being in a place. 

BEN—Music. We always end these by picking a song that’s currently on your mind or relates to the topic. I tend to listen to a song on repeat when I travel. Not sure why… But Blue Bayou by Linda Ronstadt got many, many plays on the recent trip to Paris. Love that song. Was a perfectly odd contrast to Paris. You?

ROTENDA—My quick reaction was to pull the song by The Alan Parsons Project you played while we were on a drive in L.A. and I had to ask for the track ID - feels like L.A. to me. I recently read a very, very short biography about Raphael Ravescroft’s music career, whom I discussed as I came across the piece. First song I listened to was Forgiveness by him and Tenebrae. It’s been finding its place through my recent days. Beautiful piece.